What is the biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare?
Answered by 100 licensed agents
It sounds cliché coming from me, but the biggest mistake seniors make is not having an independent agent acting on their behalf. When calling into insurance companies for help, their sole job is to sell you their product, whether it's the best option for you or not. You want someone who has a financial incentive to assist you in finding the right type of coverage by going over all your options and not leaving anything to chance. Imagine a doctor that only wrote you prescriptions from one pharmaceutical company; you'd have questions about their motives just as I would too.
One of the biggest mistakes I see people make is trusting those constant phone calls from unknown agents. Ever since I turned 65, I’ve been getting weekly calls from strangers claiming to be ‘local’ and promising me something better—it’s overwhelming and often misleading.
Another big issue? Not asking the right questions. It’s so important to find out a company’s rating and how often their premiums go up. Don’t just take their word for it, ask for real documentation.
If you’re approaching Medicare age, give yourself a head start. Don’t wait until the last minute. Start researching a few months early. Attend a seminar, learn about the two different coverage paths Medicare offers, and check in with your current doctors to see what plans they accept.
Find a licensed health agent to maintain ongoing communication with you throughout the year.
The more informed you are, the more confident you’ll feel when it’s time to choose.
Not consulting an agent broker with time in grade. In other words, experience. The other thing would be to select an agent broker with multiple companies.
In my experience working with Seniors and helping them with the Medicare "alphabet soup" what I often see is that they have not looked into either a Medicare Advantage or Medicare Supplement/Medigap Plan to offset the OUT OF POCKET expenses they WILL have with just enrolling in Medicare Part A and B ! There are Deductibles for Both Part A and B and Part B will ONLY cover 80% of the costs and YOU will be responsible for the other 20% with NO Maximum out of pocket! WOW! Work with someone who can show you both Medicare Advantage and Medicare Supplement/Medigap options then make the best decision for YOU!
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is relying on advice from neighbors, friends, or family who think they understand the program’s details. Medicare’s ins and outs are complex, and misinformation can lead to costly errors. Seeking professional consultation is always the smartest move to get it right.
Not being educated on the many different plans/ benefits/ physician networks/ HMO vs PPO/ additional benefits/ co pays/ Medicare start ratings for Medicare Advantage/ not knowing you must have PArt D/ ...
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is trying to do-it-themselves. I think it's a bad idea, especially considering that a knowledgeable, experienced, independent, licensed Medicare agent is most likely provide Medicare enrollment assistance at no cost or obligation. The technical term we use here is, "no brainer" to talk with an agent.
Getting information from Friends and Family and not an expert in the field.
Your friends and family understand what they have but they don't see the whole picture and how it works as a whole. Get advice from a true broker who has access to All or a majority of the plans. Not an agent who is selling only one or two products.
Not fully understanding their choices. It's very important that if someone is looking into Medicare, they know all the pros and cons. How is their health is now and in the future?
The question should be based on whether one controls one's own healthcare or the insurance company controls one's care. Budget is also important.
The biggest mistake I find is that they choose the same policy their friend purchased. What is good for someone else may not be good for you. This goes with Part D drug plans also. I’ve seen a lot of people cost themselves a lot of extra out of pocket expenses because they didn’t sit down with a broker. Brokers should have your best interest at heart. Personally, I don’t represent the insurance carriers, I represent you. If I represent you then you’ll more than likely stay a loyal client and will tell all your friends about me. You don’t pay me for my services, the carriers do, so take advantage of my assistance.
The biggest mistake I see seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is listening to friends or going directly to the insurance companies. Everyone’s situation is different — what worked for your neighbor or coworker might not be right for you. Medicare isn’t one-size-fits-all, and making decisions without personalized guidance can lead to unexpected costs or gaps in coverage.
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is not understanding their Medicare options. What difference between original Medicare and Medicare Advantage plans. Also enrolling into Medicare Part B (paying a premium for part B) when they still have coverage through their company or through their spouse.
Many seniors do not get proper advice from a trusted advisor and end up on insurance that is not a good fit for their need. Also, most seniors are not experts at understanding medicare yeare after year, thus again, the beneift of having a trusted advisor. Most seniors do not know aobut the 'Trial Right' when it comes to Medicare Advantage and thus use up their once in a lifetime benefit when they first become Medicare Eligible. Talk with a trusted Advisor to learn all the 'fine details' of making a proper Medicare decision.
The biggest mistake I've seen is a beneficiary applying for part B retiring after 65 without submitting the correct forms that will prevent late enrollment penalties. It is important to begin the application process with social security 3 months prior to needing your part B to start.
Seniors entering Medicare have many options that can save money immediately and going forward. You should know all the ins and outs during your IEP (initial enrollment period) work with an expert to guide and educate you, that's your best bet.
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is assuming all plans work the same or that they’ll be automatically covered the way they expect. Many choose a plan based on a friend’s recommendation or a TV ad without checking if their doctors, prescriptions, or hospitals are actually in-network. Others miss key enrollment deadlines, which can lead to lifelong penalties or gaps in coverage. Some don’t realize that Medicare doesn’t cover long-term care or dental, vision, and hearing without additional coverage. It’s a complex system, and one-size-fits-all doesn’t work. That’s why working with a local, experienced agent who understands your specific needs can save you time, money, and a lot of headaches.
Not considering all of the options available. Many seniors call a carrier directly, not realizing that a carrier can only speak about their own plans. No comparisons can be made with other carriers plans available in the area. So, they will make you "fit" into one of their plans. Working with an independent agent, who represents multiple carriers, can answer all of your questions regarding multiple carriers and plans.
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is delaying enrollment or missing their initial enrollment period. This can lead to lifetime penalties on Part B premiums and can also impact access to free Part A coverage.
The biggest mistake that seniors make is enrolling in a plan that is not explained to them and also not understanding how Medicare works and options they may have to better suit their needs.
Many seniors do not understand the puzzle, it's very difficult to navigate if you do not understand how all the parts of Medicare differ. Many people don't realize in the beginning Medicare is an individual plan not a group plan.
There are many mistakes that can be made, but I think the biggest mistake that I see people make is not enrolling a couple months ahead of when they need coverage. Sometimes, it can take 60+ days to get your Part B in place.
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is missing their initial enrollment window and not signing up on time. This can lead to late enrollment penalties that last for life and costly gaps in coverage when they need care most. Using an experienced broker can help you navigate the process correctly and make sure you enroll on time to avoid these serious problems.
Well, first we have to look at your Social Security—just to make sure you’re at the right time to start your Medicare.
We want to find out what your full retirement age is. We want to find out what your health history is, and what your partner’s health history is.
There are a lot of loaded questions here, and it’s very individualized based on your finances. Whether you’re divorced or remarried, there’s a whole lot to consider, so it’s really hard to narrow this question down.
It is case-by-case, and there’s very little generic information that applies.
This is where it’s a good idea to sit down with me, to go over many questions that will help guide us to the right decision, whether we move forward in putting you into a Medicare plan, or we tell you to hold off.
I had a phone call this morning from a client who said her husband is seven years younger than her, and she’s going to be 65 in six months. His company will pay for her insurance until he retires.
So if he’s seven years younger, he’s got more years to work before he retires. But the insurance she’d be paying for is a lot of money.
We did the calculations, and we figured it’s probably a good idea for her to go ahead and take her Medicare.
She’s also not healthy, she’s very stressed, and she doesn’t know if it’s worth it for her to stay working, so we came up with a plan.
I also asked many questions, and that’s how we were able to come up with that solution.
If you are under 65, you can get on disability if deemed by a medical professional and by Social Security. It starts as permanent coverage after your 24th month.
The Biggest mistake Seniors can make when enrolling into Medicare is not understanding how the plans, they selected work and affordability of that plan not in immediate but also in the future.
Questions to ask yourself:
1) Medicare Supplements: It's human nature to gravitate towards the lowest cost premium, but can that company handle the medical loss Ratios down the road? Does it have that history to do so? Can I pay for much higher premiums as I become older? You have to be your own financial steward with healthcare because it will be the most expensive financial expense during retirement.
2) When selecting a Medicare Prescription drug plan- many are influenced by premium cost and not looking at the details of the plan drug formulary or when will you be charges the Medicare Prescription drug deductible.
3) Medicare Advantage Plans- Continuity of Care: Are my doctors in that plans network? Am I willing to switch plans if they are not? Are my medications on this plan's formulary?
Trying to do it on their own and not knowing what they need to do to avoid penalties or late enrollment fees. Also, sometimes people set up their Part A & B, and they may not need to pay for Part B yet if they are still working and covered by a plan that is considered "creditable coverage."
Usually, the biggest mistake I see seniors make when enrolling into Medicare is not working with a professional, such as an agent or broker. With the vast amount of choices out there, seniors should be getting a full education about their options before making any decisions.
An agent/broker is someone who can lay your options out for you, explain the differences and answer your questions… for as long as you remain their client AND at no cost to you.
When enrolling with a call center, unfortunately, there are no guarantees you will be speaking to the same person each time. If you are only speaking with one carrier, you are only learning about that carrier’s product.
One of the most common mistakes people make when aging into Medicare is not understanding their enrollment periods and deadlines. Many assume they’re automatically enrolled when they turn 65, but that’s only true if they’re already receiving Social Security benefits. If not, they need to actively sign up during their Initial Enrollment Period (IEP), which spans the three months before, the month of, and the three months after their 65th birthday. Missing this window can lead to late enrollment penalties—such as a permanent increase in Part B premiums—or gaps in coverage.
One of the biggest mistakes that people make when obtaining Medicare is listening to friend's or neighbor's advice regarding the plan they should choose. Each person is an individual with different needs and the plan that is chosen should reflect that whether it's a Medicare supplement or Medicare advantage plan.
The people who get frustrated the most are the ones that listen to too many friends and family and get overwhelmed with the direction they should go. We ask questions and listen...and support your decision to follow a path that you comfortable with.
Nor asking enough questions! Neverasume what works for a friend or neighbor will work for you. While you may get a good idea if your friends are satisfied with their healthcare plan, by working with an agent, you'll be able to compare all your options and find the plan that is bested suite to your needs and budget.
I think the biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is to not have an agent who knows and understands the plans in their area that the senior resides. The other mistake is for a senior to not have an agent who they can work with and will guide them through the process.
The biggest mistake seniors make is not knowing all of their options that go with Medicare. Understanding the differences in Part A, Part B, and the additional Part C and Part D.
The biggest mistake that seniors make is not enrolling in Medicare during the proper time frame. Your Initial Enrollment Period (IEP) lasts 7 months long, 3 months prior to your 65th birthday, your birth month, and 3 months after your 65th birthday. If Medicare is not taken during this time frame, you will end up incurring penalties.
The 3 most common mistakes I encounter with Medicare are:
Mistake # 1: Improper Enrollment (Messing up your Initial, Special, or General Enrollment can result in unnecessary penalties for the rest of your life. Don't do it!)
Mistake # 2: Bad Plan Selection (You need to understand the difference between Original Medicare and Medicare Advantage then comparison shop multiple plans available to you in your area.)
Mistake # 3: Not Doing Periodic Reviews (Plans change annually and your circumstances change constantly. It is important to review your coverage regularly to ensure that you are on the correct plan.)
The mistake that we see most often is not being fully aware of all the options that are available to them. There are many options available to folks enrolling in Medicare, and it is important to discuss and assess there options so that there needs are addressed, and that their coverage compliments their lifestyle.
Not knowing about the fee for Medicare Part B or the potential of paying for IRMAA. I feel the public is not informed about this topic, and it becomes a big surprise when they receive the statement in the mail.
1. Not working with a well connected Medicare broker.
2. Not taking the time to get educated on Medicare as a whole.
3. Continuing to contribute to an HSA within the 6 month period prior to starting Part A (which can be retroactive)
4. Not learning about the 6 month guaranteed issue period regarding Medicare Supplements.
5. Thinking that once their enrolled they don't need to continue to review their plan each year. (Medicare plans change each year in either price, benefits, formularies or network)
The biggest mistake I see seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is listening to friends. Everyone’s situation is different — what worked for your neighbor or coworker might not be right for you. Medicare isn’t one-size-fits-all, and making decisions without personalized guidance can lead to unexpected costs or gaps in coverage.
Simply choosing a plan based on their spouse or friend or what they used for work. Give yourself an opportunity to be educated on the options and what works best specifically for your situation.
One of the biggest mistakes when enrolling in Medicare is when a Medicare recipient assumes they’ll be automatically enrolled in Medicare when they turn 65, but that’s not always the case. If they don’t sign up during their 7 month Initial Enrollment Period (IEP), which starts three months before their 65th birthday and ends three months after, they could face permanent late enrollment penalties and delays in coverage.
Medicare plans can change yearly. Not reviewing coverage during the Annual Enrollment Period (Oct 15–Dec 7) can mean staying in a plan that no longer fits your needs or budget. Some people who continue to work past 65 assume their employer coverage is sufficient and delay Medicare enrollment, not realizing this could lead to penalties or coordination of benefits issues.
The Biggest Mistake Seniors make is not sitting down with a qualified agent and explaining all their options. I bring 14 years of experience and over 2,000 current customers, I explain Medicare Supplements and Medicare Advantage plans. The pros the cons the insides the outs. The Food Card Commercials all the little things that just make you pull your hair out. When my clients leave, they are educated and are ready to enjoy retirement and not worry about HealthCare.
Enrolling in Medicare for the first time can be a daunting task. For seniors, taking the time to fully understand what options are available should be a priority ahead of your Initial Enrollment period. Working with a licensed professional that is local, is a great way to solid guidance. At Living Well Benefit Advisors, our goal is to educate the client and let them decide what plan will work best for their personal needs.
The biggest mistake that seniors make when enrolling in Medicare, is not using an agent. I've seen seniors who go to a website, or call a phone number to enroll, thinking they're being independent. What they come to find out is that if a problem occurs, they either need to figure it out themselves, or call a phone number where they reach someone in a call center who's not invested in their outcome. An agent on your side will make all the difference... You'll have one person to call who will be committed to helping you through any difficulties. I have personally spent hours on three-way calls to help a client resolve a situation.
AND using an agent costs you nothing. The agent is compensated by the company.
Not getting all the facts about the plan. Make sure your agent goes into details about co-pays, network, difference between HMO and PPO, extra benefits and more.
The biggest mistake I see seniors make when enrolling in Medicare? Pretty simple. They listen to commercials with retired athletes or actors instead of getting real advice from someone they actually trust.
They pick a plan because it says “$0 premium” or “extra benefits,” but don’t realize what they’re giving up until it’s too late like higher out-of-pocket costs, network restrictions, or a drug plan that doesn’t even cover their meds.
Medicare isn’t hard when you’ve got someone who sees you as a person, not a policy number or commission check. It feels like a pain because it’s designed that way so you’ll make a fast decision and never look back.
The key? Honest, no-pressure guidance from someone who knows the system and gives a damn. Not the people on TV reading a script about a “great” Medicare plan he probably doesn’t even use because, let’s be real, they’re either not on Medicare or have a low-cost group plan.
Oftentimes I find that new Medicare enrollees do not have an understanding of how Medicare works to offer health benefits. Before one can make a choice of Medicare options, one must know the differences. Using an informed and trusted professional agent is the best approach to making the best decisions for oneself.
Enrolling without an agent or with a telemarketer. I see it all the time but it's nice when I find them because once they figure out, I will meet with them face to face and don't charge for my services, they will usually let me help in the future.
One of the biggest mistakes seniors make is relying on just "word of mouth" with friends and family of what to do and what is the best plan. I think sitting down and talking to a licensed agent that can give you all the information, benefits, differences with all of your options is the best route to making sure you are on the RIGHT plan for you.
Not properly understanding the enrollment periods and when you can and cannot sign up for original Medicare. This can lead to many issues, some of which include having a gap in health insurance coverage and having to pay late enrollment penalties.
The mistake many Medicare beneficiaries make regarding enrolling into Medicare is to begin Medicare Part B too early. Many people do not realize that they do not need Medicare Part B to begin if receiving health insurance through a large employer. A large employer is classified as 20 or more employees (100+ employees if qualifying for Medicare due to disability). If one likes one's insurance through the employer, the plan is affordable and coverage out-of-pocket affordable, then deferring Part B is penalty-free. When the time comes to retire, reduce work hours or lose one's insurance from the employer, then one can enroll into Part B and the coordinating insurance plans. All one's guaranteed rights to choose a Medicare supplement, Advantage Plan and/or Part D plan remain intact.
Failure to compare the costs with Medicare to their employer health coverage. Sometimes it makes sense to stay on employer coverage and other times it doesn't.
If you're still working at 65, and your employer has less than 20 employees, you must sign up for Medicare at 65 even if you're on the employer's group health plan. Medicare must be primary coverage for age 65 or older individuals, or employees of any company having less than 20 employees. When you do eventually sign up late for Medicare, you may pay premium penalties every month for as long as you have Medicare.
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is not talking to an agent who can make sense of the confusing info that is available. Making sure you know exactly what you need and how to get it at the lowest cost is very important!
Not realizing there is paperwork to fill out if you continue working past age 65 and then go on Medicare once you retire. No paperwork = a penalty the rest of your life!!
Most commonly I see seniors enroll in Medicare and then have no idea what to do next! That s where I come in! Education, education!!! Help them understand how to wrap it all up!!
Thinking that their drug costs before Medicare will resemble those same costs when joining Medicare. It is imperative to realize that Medicare drugs are priced much differently than those you enjoyed as part of an employer's healthcare plan. Brand Name drugs will be a greater challenge especially any drug in Tiers 3, 4 and 5.
They under think the future! They aren’t in recognition that their health today is most likely the best health they will have moving forward! Do you think you will be in better health now or in 10 years? - The body doesn’t work like that even if you were the second coming of Jack Lalanne!! And so with NO UNDERWRITING involved, they should invest in THE BEST COVERAGE THEY CAN NOW!!!
Not exploring their options enough And enrolling into the lowest premium plan is a mistake that seniors often make when enrolling into Medicare. It’s never a bad idea to educate yourself on your options. Sometimes it’s easy to take the “ Out of sight out of mind” Approach, but that usually ends in a penalty from Medicare.
They miss their initial enrollment period. However, if they have creditable coverage from an employer that has over 20 employees, they may delay their enrollment.
Not getting Professional help when it is so readily available FOR FREE. Trying to know what is right for you after a few hours of research is like tying to fly around the world without a map.
Please speak with a Licensed Broker in your area...who is Independent..not someone who is working for a specific Insurance Carrier who will only show you that Carrier's options.
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is missing the Initial Enrollment Period (IEP) or failing to understand the timing of their enrollment. This period, which starts three months before a person's 65th birthday and ends three months after, is crucial for avoiding late enrollment penalties. Missing the IEP can result in a 10% increase in the Part B premium for every 12-month period of non-enrollment.
Not making informed choices and many times listening to someone that doesn't actually know what they are talking about and giving bad advice. It’s important to understand all your options and choices
The biggest mistake seniors make is not educating themselves on Medicare prior to enrolling in Medicare. Not everything out there is as good as its painted out to be.
In my experience, the biggest mistake seniors make with Medicare is listening to their friends and choosing a plan based on what works well for someone who isn't in their shoes. Don't get me wrong - people who are already in the Medicare system can provide great insight into the things they like and dislike about their plans and experiences with Medicare, but they are not you. Only you know what is important to you. You know what your medical needs have been and what they are most likely to be in the future. You know how you feel about "managed care", prior authorizations and networks and only you know your budget.
Even if you listen to your friends and choose Medicare Advantage over Original Medicare, only you know what doctors you want to see and what medications you need to have covered on the formulary. And if your life experience is different and you already have a chronic condition, only you can decide if you would sleep better at night with Original Medicare and a Supplement plan than you would with Medicare Advantage.
When you choose your first Medicare plan, it could be the last health insurance plan that you choose for the rest of your life. This decision is too important to make on a whim or because a plan worked great for your pickle ball buddies. Give it the time and consideration that it deserves.
The biggest mistake people make when enrolling in Medicare is doing so when they still have employer coverage. Most people get Medicare part A for free but part B has a premium. You do not need to get your part B in place if you have employer coverage, thus you can save that premium and never pay a late enrollment penalty as long as the employer coverage is considered creditable, i. e. it would pay the same as Medicare would.
They listen to their family members or neighbors instead of talking to an insurance broker. Insurance brokers like me don't charge for my services and I am contracted with most mayor carriers so why not talk to a Medicare Insurance Broker like myself?
Going with the plan their "friend or relative" has. Medicare is different for each person. I make sure my client is on the coverage that it best for them.
Not understanding the options and how their choices will affect their healthcare for the rest of their lives. By passing up the opportunities to enroll during guaranteed enrollment periods, they could cost themselves significantly financially over the years.
Choosing the wrong plan at the time of open enrollment can cause financial distress. It is important to find a qualified agent to assist with all the details of Medicare and available plans. While getting information from family or friends can be helpful, not every plan is the right fit for every person.
not talking to a specialist about ALL the options available to them, talking to people over the phone who you will not be able to find when you have a problem
The biggest mistake seniors often make when enrolling in Medicare is not understanding their enrollment timelines, which can lead to delayed coverage or costly late enrollment penalties. Many may assume that they can sign up at any time, but each part of Medicare has specific enrollment periods that must be followed. Additionally, failing to evaluate their healthcare needs and comparing plans can result in selecting coverage that doesn't suit their needs, leading to unexpected out-of-pocket costs. It's crucial to thoroughly research and plan ahead to avoid these pitfalls.
Trying to navigate this alone. Always reach out to a broker to go over all of your options. You could be overpaying or the opposite not having the right coverage for your needs.
Not utilizing a trained, licensed, and certified local professional to explain their options and make sure that whichever plan they choose covers their drugs and doctors. A mistake in one of these areas can cost a senior thousands in unnecessary bills. Since plans vary so much by location, only a local agent familiar with local plans and networks can properly advise seniors in their unique circumstances.
The biggest mistake that seniors make enrolling in Medicare is not knowing all the options that are available and not getting advice from an experienced broker.
Deciding that part A and B are all they need and do not need to enroll into a part D medication plan. This exposes the senior to 20% of the costs that Original Medicare does not pay. The second biggest mistake is for the senior to only consider cost of coverage. What may look attractive when only considering initial/monthly cost, could prove to be physically or financially disastrous. As brokers we help prospective clients make informed choices.
Becoming a Medicare professional over night and taking on the complex system of Medicare on there own. Also, waiting until the last minute to sign up. Please start planning ahead of time and use a local broker to guide you in the right direction.
Probably not understanding the differences between Medicare Advantage plans and Medicare Supplement plans. Folks will confuse the features and benefits of these plans and then with their flawed understanding possibly sign up for a plan that was not best for them.
Another big mistake I see is signing up late and having to pay a penalty.
I believe the biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is going directly to a carrier and not choosing to deal with an independent agent such as myself. Going directly to the carrier doesn't allow them to compare coverages and pricing.
I believe that the biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling in Medicare is not taking the time to gather important information and understand their options fully. The other mistake I see often is choosing a health insurance plan without fully understanding their options. The decision to go with the Medicare supplement versus a Medicare advantage plan is one of the most important decisions you’ll have to make. Fully understanding that decision is extraordinary important. Speaking with an experienced professional who can ensure that you fully understand your right and options is highly recommended.
Not speaking with a local experienced agent with good reviews. Other seniors will tell you thru reviews if the agent is good or not. Find a no-pressure, knowledgeable agent and it will be a good experience and you will have someone to speak with year in and year out with concerns and questions.
One of the bigger Medicare mistakes is ignoring the Annual Enrollment Period. Many things change in health insurance each year. The list and number of available plans often change and plan benefits, provider network and drug formularies may change too.
The biggest mistake that I see those newly eligible for Medicare is not comparing the benefits of Medicare Advantage plans with those of Medicare Supplement. If you apply for a Medicare Supplement plan when you're first eligible, there's no underwriting and you are given an opportunity to leave it and try out a Medicare Advantage is the Medicare Supplement is not beneficial or not a good fit.
The biggest mistake seniors make when enrolling into Medicare is they don't get a personal broker. A personal broker looks at plan changes that happen every year to make sure prescriptions are still covered at a reasonable cost and that the client's doctors are still in network. Medicare can be very confusing and a broker simplifies the process and becomes your advocate.
Not getting all of the information on options and requirements - such as being required to carry a PDP plan at minimum if they don't have something creditable
